Megadrum hi-hat settings with BFD2?

[anttipi]

I assume from your initial post that you've followed this procedure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Uu45pQT5DY

Yeah I did, and it seems handy and simple enough (you only need to assign three MIDI notes and BFD2 takes care of the rest) and I'm sure it would work beautifully if I just got some CC messages through to BFD2.

I think it is the same sound, just processed differently.

Maybe I'm thinking too much along the BFD2 lines: one sound for bow, one for edge, one for pedal. Of course, in Megadrum it's different because there are many different settings. The main problem of course right now is the lack of CC message. From what I understand, only the hi-hat pedal settings affect CC messages, not the hi-hat cymbal settings? In that case I'm at a loss since there is no such thing as a "MIDI sensitivity" etc. setting.

[Sabre]

Maybe I'm thinking too much along the BFD2 lines: one sound for bow, one for edge, one for pedal. Of course, in Megadrum it's different because there are many different settings.

Megadrum allows for many different MIDI "events", presumably so that it sends enough information so as to work with a wide variety of controllers.
I'm no expert on MIDI, but it seems to me that the VST software (BFD etc.) will use the events it needs, and simply ignore the rest.
The software uses a combination of the data it receives from the pad and the pedal (controller) to determine which sound to produce.

The main problem of course right now is the lack of CC message. From what I understand, only the hi-hat pedal settings affect CC messages, not the hi-hat cymbal settings? In that case I'm at a loss since there is no such thing as a "MIDI sensitivity" etc. setting.

I think you are absolutely correct about your problem being related to the CC data.
CC stands for 'continuous controller' and CC4 is the MIDI standard for a 'foot pedal' continuous controller.

Paraphrasing from the TweakHeadz Lab website "MIDI works by sending NOTE ON and NOTE OFF events (striking the pad) down a midi cable; as well as timing information and controller (pedal) information." The pad strike velocity is measured from 0 (lower being lighter hits) to 127 (maximum velocity - hardest hit). Similarly, continuous controller (CC data) is measured from 0 (wide open in the case of the Roland FD-8) to 127 (fully closed). Obviously different controllers send data differently, but essentially all send the same information. Megadrum is designed to allow configuration that accomodates most (if not all) different controllers. As you are discovering, finding the right configuration for you can be a challenge.

I'm including a screen capture of the data my pedal sends. The image depicts the pedal cycling 3 times from fully open to fully closed (held closed for a few seconds) and back open. You can see the Megadrum sending the chick note (42) ON/OFF data when it senses the pedal has stopped moving closed. Hopefully seeing what it is supposed to look like, will help you troubleshoot your setup...

[anttipi]

I managed to get CC #4 messages (or more like a stream of CC's) in BFD2's MIDI Window by tweaking the pedal high and low levels in Megadrum. However, it can't be the hi-hat controller that's sending the information because even after unplugging all pad cables Megadrum still keeps sending the CC messages! All the while the MIDI light on the front panel is on and the first bar on the VU meter's upper row is full up.

Apparently some guy with a Trigger I/O has managed to get CC position messages from the RHH-135 hi-hat. I have no idea how he did that but that is all I would need right now. It seems as if the signal coming from the controller is too "weak" for Megadrum to detect it. Don't know if that's even possible but in any case Megadrum only sends CC signals when I press the pedal hard (not counting the aforementioned case where Megadrum was sending the signals independently of the controller).

I've read the RHH-135 design is based on a weak magnet and a 4-way switch. I don't know if Megadrum can "handle" multi-level switches in the first place - can't see why not though.

I'm not sure if there is a setting in Megadrum that would make the HH Pedal input more "sensitive" to positional signals - I thought the high/low level settings were supposed to do just that?

[Sabre]

I managed to get CC #4 messages (or more like a stream of CC's) in BFD2's MIDI Window by tweaking the pedal high and low levels in Megadrum. However, it can't be the hi-hat controller that's sending the information because even after unplugging all pad cables Megadrum still keeps sending the CC messages! All the while the MIDI light on the front panel is on and the first bar on the VU meter's upper row is full up.

Apparently some guy with a Trigger I/O has managed to get CC position messages from the RHH-135 hi-hat. I have no idea how he did that but that is all I would need right now. It seems as if the signal coming from the controller is too "weak" for Megadrum to detect it. Don't know if that's even possible but in any case Megadrum only sends CC signals when I press the pedal hard (not counting the aforementioned case where Megadrum was sending the signals independently of the controller). I think the RHH-135 design is based on a weak magnet and a 4-way switch (not sure!). I don't know if that explains the "weak" signal - I'm really a novice in all of this...

I'm not sure if there is a setting in Megadrum that would make the HH Pedal input more "sensitive" - I thought the high/low level settings were supposed to do just that?

I just did a quick review of your other posts to see if I could get a better feel for whats going on. I surmise that your controller is the Yamaha RHH-135. I have no idea which polarity or impedence settings you need, but once you get that figured out, the rest will be cake.

A couple of things to note:

#1 - the first bar on the VU meter's upper row is always full up when my pedal is at rest (fully open) - it goes down as my pedal is pressed down.
#2 - In MIDI-OX - click 'Options' - choose 'Data Display' and uncheck both Monitor Input: Hex and Monitor Output: Hex. I found this the hard way...
#3 -<HiHat Pedal>HiLevel - If you have it set too high, you can tell by the MIDI Activity LED flashing and MIDI-OX displaying a steady stream of CC messages when there is no pedal activity. I don't know if 'more sensitive' is the right term, but LowLevel/HiLevel are the settings that really evened out my FD-8 pedal response.

Quoting Dmitri - "You should adjust both low and high level so that the values were as far apart as possible and yet the pedal reaches extreme positions. Use VU Meter (not very accurate), Big VU Meter (more accurate) or CC messages (with MIDI-OX). When using CC messages and MIDI-OX as a guidance you need to achieve such a configuration that CC messages are not sent by MegaDrum in extreme pedal positions."

I used Big VU Meter to get close, then used MIDI-OX to fine tune to perfection. 21 was too low and wasn’t registering fully closed (Big VU meter showed one bar on the left). 173 was too high and not registering fully open (Big VU meter wasn’t going all the way to the right and the MIDI Activity LED kept flashing). Mine are 25 and 170. (although for illustrative purposes, these settings are not the ones used in my previous image)

The other important settings are OpenLvl and ClosedLvl.
Hits with pedal levels between OpenLvl and ClosedLvl will be registered as half-open hits.
(For this example: bow open note is 43 – closed note is 42 – half-open note is 46)
Dial OpenLvl down while tapping the hi-hat bow until MIDI-OX begins seeing note 46 instead of 43.
In my case 0 was too far but 1 sent note 43 – I set it at 5
Then step on the pedal to close it fully and dial ClosedLvl up while tapping the hi-hat bow until MIDI-OX begins seeing note 46 instead of 42. In my case 127 was too far but 126 sent note 42 – I set it at 125

[anttipi]

Thanks for the tips, Sabre!

One thing I don't get: right now I don't have any pads or the controller plugged in and still I get footcontroller CC messages when I change the high/low pedal levels? I thought CC messages are generated from the voltage sent by the controller but now it seems Megadrum is "generating" the messages by itself - plugging or unplugging the controller seems to have no effect.

[anttipi]

EDIT: OK, heres what's happening (or not happening): measuring red to tip, black to ring I get a reading 148.8-149.0 kohms from the controller. Moving the pedal up and down has absolulety now effect whatsoever on the reading! Does this mean the controller is broken?

It's just about getting to the point that I'm considering selling my RHH-135 because I've been trying to get this to work for days in a row with no luck...

[Sabre]

One thing I don't get: right now I don't have any pads or the controller plugged in and still I get footcontroller CC messages when I change the high/low pedal levels? I thought CC messages are generated from the voltage sent by the controller but now it seems Megadrum is "generating" the messages by itself - plugging or unplugging the controller seems to have no effect.

I think the controller changes resistance rather than supply voltage. In any case, the controller wouldn't need to be connected to the module for you to induce CC data while changing levels. I was able to randomly generate CC data just by rotating the adjustment dial. Remember that the Megadrum has a wider range in order to compensate for a variety of controllers. With my controller connected to the module, I begin seeing CC data at HighLevel 173. With the controller (and it's resistance) disconnected from the module, I don't see CC data until HighLevel 214.

When I meter my PCY-135 pad, I can get a reading with the meter dialled in at 20k ohms (red to tip, black to sleeve). However, when I try the same with both my controller and the hi-hat cymbal pad, I don't get any reading in either case. I'm at a loss here as to how that can be, because the hi-hat cymbal is anyway triggering OK so it can't be broken.

Without knowing your exact testing methods, it would be difficult to interpret your results. It looks like you are testing the PCY-135's continuity and polarity. I have no knowledge of the RHH-135 or how it is supposed to work, and to be brutally honest, this is taking things way into uncharted waters for me. I'm very new to Megadrum myself, and just thought I could share some of what I've learned to see if it might help you. I wouldn't be at all suprised to learn that my understanding of how things work is incorrect. It also doesn't take into account any possible issues with the way your Megadrum is built. I hope you can hold off on making any major decisions (selling anything) until Dmitri returns or someone else with a better understanding of the RHH-135 comes along.

I did notice this information in the RHH-135 user manual. It sounds a lot like your problem...
If this is the case, perhaps the controller isn't moving enough to actually be activated by the pedal motion...

The Closed Hi-hat voice does not sound unless the hi-hat pedal is pressed down strongly.
● Is the felt washer still under the stand base? Try removing the felt that came with the hi-hat stand and install the stand base again without it. (See “Setting Up.”)

[anttipi]

I have got this far:
With the controller cable plugging in and the hi-hat in the up position (pedal not pressed), I've adjusted the high and low pedal levels so that Megadrum stops sending CC messages (the green MIDI light turns off).

Then I wait for the VU meter screen to appear: the first bar on the upper row shows almost zero. Then as I press the pedal down, the MIDI light flashes and the VU meter bar jumps right up. Subsequently, pressing the pedal all the way to closed causes the green MIDI light to flash each time but the VU bar remains full on all the time and doesn't go down. I suppose the bar is meant to go down as the pedal is pressed?

I have tried the above with both low/high impedance (with AltIn set to "yes" with the latter) and both of the two ring/tip configurations. The results are pretty much similar apart from having to set different high and low pedal levels.

[Sabre]

I wait for the VU meter screen to appear: the first bar on the upper row shows almost zero. Then as I press the pedal down, the MIDI light flashes and the VU meter bar jumps right up.

Mine is exactly the same on the first cycle, except the bar doesn't go up until I release the pedal. Subsequent pedal cycles result in a green light while the pedal is in motion, and the bar goes up and down in sync with the pedal.

Subsequently, pressing the pedal all the way to closed causes the green MIDI light to flash each time but the VU bar remains full on all the time and doesn't go down.

When exactly does the light flash?
Pedal wide open?
Pedal fully closed?
or while the pedal is in motion?

I have tried the above with both low/high impedance (with AltIn set to "yes" with the latter) and both of the two ring/tip configurations. The results are pretty much similar apart from having to set different high and low pedal levels.

ok, apologies for going all 'Captain Obvious' here...

Have you used the RHH-135 successfully in the past with a different module?
If yes, was it on the same stand you are using now?
Are you using stereo TRS cables? (the ones that came with the RHH-135 preferrably)
Have you made certain that there is nothing on the stand beneath the stand base part of the RHH-135?
Can you visibly see the controller being compressed against the stand base when you depress the pedal?

[anttipi]

A few more hours have passed tweaking...

The thing is I don't think there is a hall sensor in RHH-135 at all. On different forums there has been talk about the controller's "mystery magnet" and a presumable hall sensor but I don't know what these speculations are based on. It must be just a multi-switch design. No wonder I don't get any CC activity until the pad and base touch!

Moving on the pedal, I could only get Megadrum's VU meter to move in steps - not continuously/smoothly like with a hall sensor. I have read somewhere that RHH-135 has a 4-way switch and my findings seem to confirm this. Finding the right sensitivity settings (low/high level) and usable curve is a bitch because of this. I was able to get half-open sounds only within a very small distance of pedal movement (only once the "soft" underside of the pad starts to compress against the base).

So Megadrum is not to blame and I apologise if it's come across that way. On the contrary, Megadrum's tweakability apparently makes using a DIY hall sensor controller super easy. A hall sensor system costs almost nothing to make, is quick to assemble and a breeze to setup with Megadrum. Once I saw this thread on the Vdrums forum ( http://www.vdrums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54170 ) I knew right away I'm sending my RHH-135 back on Monday (Thomann has a 30 day money back guarantee). I'll build a hall sensor and use it with a PCY-135 cymbal. For the price of the returned RHH-135 alone I get a PCY-135 pad and a drum bench (which I forgot to include in my last order ).

So: I can confirm RHH-135 can be made to work with Megadrum but I found its continuous controller function to be lacking. Or perhaps I just missed something. Trying the different curves didn't help much anyway.